Sunday, March 26, 2006

Kool-Aid Drinking Critics #5

Well, all, I went through a period of time where I really did not get a whole lot of seriously negative criticism (at least not any worth talking about), but for reasons that I am not going to report, there has been quite an influx lately. I received this one Saturday morning or so and I certainly felt it was worthy of examination. I will let you read it, then I will comment on selected passages. I like this comment because this person really makes my point for me. I wish him the best, and I hope he realizes how destructive BWW is for his person, mind, and spirit. Hold on tight…here we go:

This is the third comment on the first Adventures of the Extreme Fredom Team post.

optimistic relationship builder said...

I know exactly why you call yourself X. You have Xed yourself out so you want others to join. I really feel sorry for you being such a sad Individual. Because of your short comings you put out your opinions about what you think know. I am sure there have been some jerks in this business, but I bet its some jerks at all jobs and even churches. It's amazing how people like yourself would rather knock others for wanting more and willing to sacrifice than to encourage and help give hope. At least these guys are willing to get out and drive the miles to try and help people they don't even know. I'm no dummy, I know these guys benefit but so do I based on the work I do.

I have a gym membership that was sold to me by a salesman who told me I could look like Rocky but it's amazing, I've had this membership for 3 years and I still have gut and my arms are getting softer. I am really disappointed. I've paid for this thing every month, but the disappointment is in me for not doing what was required of me to get the results promised upon purchase.

I went to college for five years and paid at least 7000.00 a year. As my grades went down and I could not receive free schooling, so what, the financial aid kept giving me more loans to continue and it did not work. Here I am five years wasted, about 35,000 and I still don't have a degree. Who should I blame? The guidance counselor told me I could do it and he believed in me, but it just did not work. Who do I blame?

These guys are trying to help people who want to own their own business. But it's not a free lunch, it takes work and money. My wife and I work in the corporate world and we are 26 years old and we have always wanted to own our own business and we saw this and did not know what to think but as I checked this business out I saw it was real. I'm an African American and none of my friends are in business with me but I went out and found some guys who wanted more out of life and was willing to find out what it would take to make it happen and its happening. It's not a pie in the sky, it's not a get rich quick scam, and it’s a business. Just so you know; most of the people who get out of this are those you are looking for a get rich quick scam. It's not brainwashing, brainwashing is telling people what to think. The freedom team teaches people how to think. There is a difference. To identify the negative is nothing special, try coming up with your own thing.

I'm done, but don't try to come at me about the bible. Trust me; you don't want to go there with me. I have studied what it says about money save that conversation for someone else...

Sat Mar 25, 10:55:55 AM EST

The Origins of My Username

ORB says: “I know exactly why you call yourself X. You have Xed yourself out so you want others to join.

It is an interesting, but expected twist attacking my character and name, especially since this person does not know who I am. But just in case anyone is interested in the origins of my name, I thought I would talk about it a bit. Unlike ORB, I did well in college. I enjoyed the manifest pleasures of academia seeking time in the sciences and arts. My username is the name of the mystical land of Xanadu from the poem Kubla Kahn by Samuel Taylor Coleridge, which I had read before college, but I did some further study out of that poem. When I first got the internet, my username was simply Xanadu, but when I moved out from the small world of the local dial-up services to the vast expanse of the internet, I noted that many people had the name Xanadu already. Since I hate the usernames with numbers after them, I had to find a creative way to have a name which would change as little as I could get it to from crazy free online service to service. To best accommodate it, I used the three initials from the author Samuel Taylor Coleridge and added it Xanadu to arrive at my username Xanadustc. ‘X’ is just an abbreviation since many people do not want to write it. There you have it.

Opinions and Facts

ORB says: “I really feel sorry for you being such a sad Individual. Because of your short comings you put out your opinions about what you think know.

It is interesting to note that I am one of the few people who does NOT post my opinions. I post detailed and verifiable facts as they are applied to solid biblical exegesis using sound hermeneutics as opposed to Word-Faith teachers who have repeated taught apostic doctrine. On the contrary, this person jumped in and attacked my character, ignored my facts, and gave a biased opinion.

What is ‘Help’?

ORB says: “It's amazing how people like yourself would rather knock others for wanting more and willing to sacrifice than to encourage and help give hope.

Where have I ever knocked others for wanting more? If this person indeed READ the post that he commented on, he would have seen this paragraph:

With these points in mind, I want you to know that having money is not a sin. Going on a good vacation, having a nice car, a nice house, etc, are not sins. The problem arises when you use a deceptive system of mind control to fleece people out of hard earned money so that you can buy a whole lot of things, make videos about it, and post them to motivate people to do more of the same.

As you can see, my problem is not the possessions these people have, it is the system that use to get it.

ORB says: “At least these guys are willing to get out and drive the miles to try and help people they don't even know. I'm no dummy, I know these guys benefit but so do I based on the work I do.

How much does this person really benefit? I do not know, but I am willing to bet that he losing money. There are 5 in 2000, or 1 in 400 who make it to the Q-12 level. I commented on this in a previous post, here is the relevant paragraph again:

To be fair, I will define ‘successful’ as a person who has reached the level of Q-12 Platinum. We must be careful even here, because a person can be a poorly structured Platinum and make a lot less than the typical, but we will grant that ALL Platinums are proper. Now, according to the Quixtar affiliate site, ThisBizNow, only 0.244% of people make the Q-12 Platinum level. So, out of 2000 people, 5 will become successful. Note that the average income is $115 per month.

Now, what is required for the ‘help’ that this person eludes to? Well, I detail this on the series of posts called “Getting Started with BWW and Quixtar”. The links are here:

Introduction
Chapter 1
Chapter 2.1
Chapter 2.2
Chapter 2.3
Chapter 2.4

Chapter 3 (Not Posted Yet)

Chapter 4 (Not Posted Yet)

From the introduction, I note:

Although there are some ‘better’ and ‘worse’ uplines, most of them will only help you if you are plugged into the BWW system in it’s entirety. Obviously, they will make exceptions for people that are in what would be referred to as the ‘Honeymoon Period’, namely being a person who is up to 6 months - 1 year.

From Are You Discontented?, I write:

  • Jack talks about book of the month and then criticizes everyone that is only reading one book, calling the Book of the Month program doing the minimum.
  • Tape of the week is done the same way. He says that you should be buying more tapes than that. He says to use the business to finance it.

From Secrets to going to Platinum, I quote:

Jake says, “this is the number one secret: The Britt System…You must learn how to promote and edify…if you will plug into it at all cost, it will give you life and a life of more abundance.” And Doug confirms, “I also figured out that the Britt System was the key, and if I was going to sponsor people, I had to have the books and tapes to get them started right.”

From Keep Your Dream, I write:

There is some controversy over what the functions are actually for. Many system IBO’s will say that this is about ‘teaching’ and ‘training’, but Terry even brings up in this tape the issue that they DON’T talk about such things (except that they will talk about it the next day for a bit). He emphasizes that they talk about the ‘why’ to build the business, i.e. motivation. So in effect, people are constantly buying into a system that gives them nothing new but new stories of motivation and very little else (I think I have 2 tapes on products, about 15 on basic mechanics, which all contain the same information, and about 500 tapes on basic motivation.)

How much do we benefit? The statistical answer is NOT MUCH! It takes putting thousands of dollars of money into the system (which is not even required in the academic sense) to your success in Quixtar. If you fail to put that money in, you are not going to be in good standing, and thus, you will not get the help as is recorded on their own tapes (Note again the honeymoon phase vs. someone who has observed all information and decides not to participate in the MO). Now, please define the very vague word ‘help’. It is used over and over in a very meaningless way.

Now, how much work is required for you to get money in this system? You have to talk to everyone you know, more than that, and work through the numbers of 3 out of 100 people MIGHT get in. Those that do, only a few will remain. Even to maintain a high pin such as Emerald, many former IBO’s say they have worked 60 or more hours a week to do that. I will stick to my 40 hours and make the same money, thank you, because I have better things to do with my time than chase a dollar bill.

An example of Work

ORB says: “I have a gym membership that was sold to me by a salesman who told me I could look like Rocky but it's amazing, I've had this membership for 3 years and I still have gut and my arms are getting softer. I am really disappointed. I've paid for this thing every month, but the disappointment is in me for not doing what was required of me to get the results promised upon purchase.

This is interesting. First, what this person says is true! You have to work to make achievements. But, just because you are working, that does not guarantee an achievement. The Quixtar and BWW system combination is a broken machine. In this case, MOST (though not all) people in this situation would have actually lost weight if they had exercised. This person makes a true statement, the membership to the gym did not give him a firm body in itself, as such, a registration in Quixtar does not automatically grant an income, you have to do the work. But the problem is that this fool, and I use that term appropriately, ASSUMES that I and all others did NOT work, thus, they are simply spewing forth the blame on the PERSON for not succeeding despite the FACTS about the reality of this system. If you are reading this, ORB, read my STORY before you make a half cocked assumption about my work!

He continues on: “I went to college for five years and paid at least 7000.00 a year. As my grades went down and I could not receive free schooling, so what, the financial aid kept giving me more loans to continue and it did not work. Here I am five years wasted, about 35,000 and I still don't have a degree. Who should I blame? The guidance counselor told me I could do it and he believed in me, but it just did not work. Who do I blame?

Well, in this case I will ask DID YOU WORK? Even if he did, it does NOT grant success. Not all people are designed for college. I was able to finish Organic Chemistry in the third position in my class without much study. My friends had to study their brains out (quite literally) to manage a C in the class. I am simply built for better academics than others. Does that mean that it is only me that is the problem? NO. Here is a partial list as to why:

  1. The system TEACHES that anyone can make it – thus, they drive to get everyone totally plugged into the system at a high cost, I might add.
  2. People are required for achieving levels – thus success is NEVER a matter of my own discipline, but rather, depends on other people staying in.
  3. The turnover causes most of the work in the business to be focused on replacing lost legs and volume.
  4. The general negative attitude on MLM is JUSTIFED by the general population, which poses a problem to recruitment and retention.

Where are your Facts?

ORB says: “Just so you know; most of the people who get out of this are those you are looking for a get rich quick scam.

Where are the statistics? I never even MET anyone involved who was looking for a get-rich-quick scheme.

He continues: “It's not brainwashing, brainwashing is telling people what to think. The freedom team teaches people how to think.

Actually, brain washing is coercive, from the hands of the enemy, and for the purpose of a sudden reversal of values. It is attained by torture and long-term mistreatment. That is NOT what is used in BWW. BWW, however, uses MIND CONTROL, which is also called Though Reform. It is very subtle and sophisticated and is attained by intentional manipulation of a person by ‘friends.’ (Hassen, Steve, Combating Cult Mind Control, 1988, One Street Press, Rochester, VT; pages 55-56). To see how BWW fits this, please see my own experiential analysis here, or see professional cult analyst Steve Hassan’s analysis here.

He says that there is a difference between telling people how to think and teaching people how to think…I find that very interesting since you hear on many BWW tapes that if you are not succeeding yet, you don’t have your thought process working right yet. Any more differences this person would like to tell me about?

He concludes his wonderful message with: “I'm done, but don't try to come at me about the bible. Trust me; you don't want to go there with me. I have studied what it says about money save that conversation for someone else...

Ohhhh!!! I am shaking in my boots now. ORB, I would like to tell you that if you are getting your analysis from the authors in the following list, I would not be so willing to stand before God with them:

Charles Capps

Kenneth Copeland

Kenneth Hagin

E.W. Kenyon

Edwin Cole

Jerry Saville,

John Avanzini

Paul (or David) Yongi Cho

Paul Crouch

Pat Robertson

Steve Covey

Napoleon Hill

W. Clement Stone

Robert Schuller

Robert Tilton

Paul Crouch

Norman Vincent Peale

These authors are all word faith authors, and curiously, many are on the BWW booklist. These authors all teach that God wants you to be rich. That is simply not the case, if it were, Jesus Christ, all the apostles, and nearly every person in the early church, as well as the church today are outside the will of God. Sorry, FOOL, I will respond with the scriptures if I so well please. I will repeat EXACTLY what is already written on the post that you commented on:

Money and the Bible

I would like to point out the Biblical basis for wealth as it will be important while reading this series. The money is neutral. I am not using this post to preach a poverty Gospel, however, it is clear from the teachings of the BWW system that they are teaching a prosperity Gospel. To set it straight, here is SOME of what the bible says about money (there is a lot, I will pull out the relevant points here).

First, read Matthew 19:16-22. This passage does NOT mean that a person must give everything away to be saved (yes, there have been apostic theologies called ‘poverty Gospels’ that teach this). In this verse, Jesus is testing just how well this young man kept the commandments. In fact, he failed the first one. This man loved his money more than God, which is why he went away grieving. For him, his property was worth more than his soul. POINT NUMBER 1: Money is a problem when you put it before God.

Next, read 1 Timothy 6:3-6. In this verse, we see the problem with using the platform of Godliness to gain material goods. In the last part (vs. 6), we see that contentment, not dreams, is the way to gain. Contentment and dreams are two opposing sides of the spectrum. POINT NUMBER 2: Contentment is the path to sound living.

Next, read 1 Timothy 6:9-10. It is clear from watching these videos that a total all consuming love for money is the motivation behind the actions. POINT NUMBER 3: When your focus is earning money, you are subjecting yourself to great temptations for practicing evil.

With these points in mind, I want you to know that having money is not a sin. Going on a good vacation, having a nice car, a nice house, etc, are not sins. The problem arises when you use a deceptive system of mind control to fleece people out of hard earned money so that you can buy a whole lot of things, make videos about it, and post them to motivate people to do more of the same.

Sorry, but your wordless blanket statement about you knowing more about the biblical basis of wealth than I do is utterly foolish. If you have an issue with this analysis, comment biblical exegesis and we will work it out from there.

6 Comments:

Blogger truth said...

Good post X, I actually just started up a weekly edition responding to IBO comments.

I like the gym analogy, however it is like Quixtar is the gym and the system is an all you can eat buffet. So if you have to plug into the system all your hard work in the gym is going to be wasted.

We will have to agree to disagree on Copeland and Hagin. I think God does want you to be prosperous and that he will bless you, but not until he knows you will do right with it. So in the case of putting money before God, you are right, God cannot financially bless that person.

Good response though, it is always funny to read some of those kinds of comments.

Mon Mar 27, 07:22:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger xanadustc said...

If I were you, Truth, I would do a VERY CRITICAL analysis of those authors. Every one of them teaches a false doctrine. I know that you are pretty new in the faith. There was a time that I agreed with these people, but an understanding of the Gospel has corrected that postion.

Answer me this question:
If God was in the habit of making rich the people who truely follow Him, which one of the apostles and early church members would qualify?

Mon Mar 27, 08:36:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger truth said...

One can certainly do their critical review of a ministry, and with some people out there scamming people, it is a good idea.

Most of it depends on your definition of rich. I don't define rich and prosperous the same way. I would define rich as someone who has an over abundance. I would define prosperous as someone who does not need or want for anything.

Even your quote of Matthew, if you continue on you will see that yes the man left sad because he did not wish to part with his money, but Jesus also said that those who gave would recieve hundredfold.

To answer though I would say Jesus and all of his disciples were qualified as prosperous. Mark 6:35-44 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%206:35-44;&version=8;) shows that the disciples asked to go and buy bread for the people to eat. Surely for the amount of people, they weren't exactly without to offer to buy food for all those people. There are other examples, but I am not looking for a debate here.

My only question would be did the apostles go without. Did they not have all their needs met? If they did I would say they were prosperous.

Think how good your life would be if all your needs were met. Yes, health, home, and food are all good for needs being met, but I am talking about financial, and other types of needs. If all these needs are met and you do not do without then I believe you are blessed and prosperous.

Also, if you do right and don't serve money but are generous with it. Why would God not want to bless you?

Just my 2cents

Tue Mar 28, 05:30:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger xanadustc said...

Your view of prosperity is very biblical. I am contrasting the world's definition with the biblical. Jesus tells us NOT to seek what to eat, what to wear, and our shelter because God knows we NEED these things. There is a level of common sense here in that you need to work for what you have, but I referring to the Quixtar MO definitions of prosperity which is a sick over abundance (James 5:3). Indeed, there are solid Christians with such an over abundance and using it wisely. My overall point is that money is a non-issue with God. He does not seek to financially bless those who have used their money wisely, for each person has their own gifts, purpose, and cause for Him; some will live with money, others will live without. I know some of the most wise and prudent Christians who have very little. If God gave financially to all those with those traits, we would be right back where we started with money as the sign of blessing. Indeed, in the New Testament times, spiritual fruit is the sign of blessings.

Regarding the verse you quote, there is solid evidence that the ministry had some money, but the disciples as a person did not. The only one who was indeed rich among the early church according to scripture was Philemon. Please look at Acts 3:6 to see how much Peter had.

I think we are on the same page, but using different words.

Tue Mar 28, 08:52:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger truth said...

I agree that the Quixtar MO definition of prosperity is wrong. They see it as an over abundance, and they show it used to buy many material items that go overboard. I have no problem with having nice things, but when it is all that is focused on, they are not serving God.

I also agree that money is not an issue with God, it is only a tool. But no matter what you gift, you are going to need money to get things done in this world. Churches don't build themselves, trips don't pay for themselves, etc. etc. So if you do serve God before money and realize money is only a tool to accomplish your purpose, yes he will bless you financially as a means to further you in your gifts and purposes.

I guess I don't seperate the ministry from the person. I don't know of any of the apostles that didn't have their needs met when they started the early church. They traveled to many different places. So I say they were prosperous because they did not need for anything, it was provided.

I am not saying all Christians will have the same financial situation, that will never be the case. Some will have more, some not, but God will not leave anyone without.

I don't know about that verse, certainly alone it shows that he has none, but when read in context of the entire chapter, one has to ask, does he have NONE, or does he not have any on him. Certainly giving that lame man gifts from the spirit were far more important then any gold or silver would be. In the context of the chapter the silver and gold were trivialized as they should have been, something Quixtar MO leaders need to learn. I don't think they quote that chapter too often.

Either way, I agree I think we are looking at it diffent ways, but on the same page.

Wed Mar 29, 04:23:00 AM GMT-5  
Blogger realistic said...

xanadustc,
Its a numbers game. If you don't go through the numbers you wont get the results. It's black and white why some people fail and other don't. If someone says it didnt work, just ask them how many times they showed the plan. Its that simple. Did you quit? How many times did you show the plan? How much do you make a year xanadustc? How happy is your family? These guys have success and the credibility. Where are your photos and videos of you loving life?

Sat Jul 05, 02:59:00 AM GMT-5  

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